The regeneration and preservation of Sheffield’s past
A debate is rumbling about whether or not Castle market should be listed.
Giving it listed status would mean that it would be much harder to press ahead with some elements of the Sheffield city centre master plan, notably the idea to open up the ruins of the old castle, which are located under the current 1960s market building.
The arguments are discussed in this post on the Bleeding heart show blog:
There’s no doubt that if the decision is made purely on aesthetic or historical grounds, the council would have their demolition day. But when you consider the decision on social grounds, things get somewhat murkier.
The full post is well worth a read.
A tale of two castles post on Bleeding heart show blog
Castle market by daskine on Flickr, used under the Creative commons licence
Neil
/ 7 July, 2010That’s right. Preserve the ugly and less useful buildings to make it really difficult to create new and beautiful spaces for the people of Sheffield to enjoy. No modern city anywhere in Europe would actively preserve the market- it’s had its day.
Sheffield needs to think bigger than tinpot sentimentality to rejuvenate and become something deserving of a city of culture status.
projectsheffield
/ 8 July, 2010This is crass when over the road is this http://underclassrising.net/reports/SCC/sheffieldoldcrowncourt.html and down the road
http://underclassrising.net/reports/Post-office.html both going to ruin i like what is going on in Sheffield the flow is right and for once the planners seem to have got things right, I have all ways been on the side of demolition opening the old Castle and creating a park.
Moving the co/op/post office into the old BHS makes sense and then turning that building into something of use, back to The Old Sheffield Crown Court what can be done with such a place?, but The Old Post Office would make a very nice hotel, indeed there was plans so much of Sheffield’s past has been lost but i shall not miss The Old Markets.
Sheffield blog
/ 15 July, 2010In pictures: Sheffield castle and Castle market http://bit.ly/9ews17
John Barrow
/ 31 July, 2010I hope English Heritage see sense and decide not to list the Castle Market. I would love to see the heffield Castle ruins fully excavated and put back on public display in a park setting.
There is no open green space in the Wicker / Waingate area and that area of the city would really benefit.
The people of Sheffield overwhelmingly want the castle ruins brought into the open, so get the Castle Market demolished as it is a brutally ugly building which has out-lived its purpose.
I used to be taken around the market with my grandmother when I was a kid, so I have fond memories of it, but nostalgia should not be a treason for keeping an eyesore of a building standing as it is holding back Sheffield’s redevelopment.
So come on English Heritage, see sense, allow the demolition of the market buildings and enable the castle ruins – which are grade 2 listed themselves – to be unearthed to benefit the whole city.
The new market building to be built on The Moor will be more than a fitting replacement.
judd newton
/ 4 August, 2010the people of sheffield do not overwhelmingly wish to demolish the market, over six months i have asked both shoppers and stall holders this question , not one customer wishes to move to the moor. remember that the people who use the market are usually the least well of of our city .the only people who would like to move to the moor probably never shop in castle,so if you think sheffield can afford 60 million quid [the star august 4th] then your living in cuckoo land,there has been a market on castle gate 700years, its still there thats history.
Neil
/ 4 August, 2010Judd, you are demonstrating the kind of sentimentality that holds Sheffield back. There will be a new space for the same marketeers to have the same Market stalls for the same less well off people.
I challenge you to find examples of similar Market sites. Even in eastern Europe they’re knocking down the old markets to make more pleasant cities.
I could almost understand your emotion if the Sheffield Market was even ruggedly attractive rather than a dated eyesore.
Grow up.
judd newton
/ 4 August, 2010thank you,for your assessment of my intellect ,i will bear it in mind whenever i put forward my opinion in future,i would like to suggest if i may that if sheffield has 60 odd million pounds to thro around there are many many much worthier causes than swapping one building for another, i would like to remind you that bluebell wood chidrens hospice had to rely on fundraisers [i was one im proud to admit]to be built,so i would also suggest that maybe you can do some thing similar to replicate something we already have,i will try to grow up maybe you can give me some tips.kind regards. judd newton
judd newton
/ 4 August, 2010ps neil,have we paid for don valley stadium as yet and does it make a profit i believe that our civic leaders who where responsible for that millstone are still around and still grinning like Cheshire cats at there foresight and wisdom ,im sure they will welcome you into there fold. respectfully yours judd
Neil
/ 4 August, 2010Judd, I didn’t make any comment on your intellect- just on your attitude. You seem emotional and sentimental about this change and seem to think that money to modernise a city to make it more pleasant for all, to attract tourism and business should be donated to charity instead. It’s fine that you think these noble thoughts but I think you’re being rather selfish and naive. A modern and attractive city boosts local economy over and above any noble donations to charity. It seems like you believe no-change will solve all Sheffield’s economic difficulties. Well good luck with that. I’ll take my business and business rates to a more attractive city.
I can’t really work out what your comment #8 means but I assume it’s more of the same. I’ll happily admit I am ignorant of the economic arrangements of Don Valley Stadium but I expect that you are also, even if you believe you are not. A business does not always have to make an above the line profit to be profitable in a greater perspective. If it did, most museums and art galleries would close. I can only infer from your comments that you believe this is acceptable.
I’d still be interested in those examples of derelict markets preserved for sentimental reasons above practical and progressive ones.
judd newton
/ 5 August, 2010barnsley, doncaster, rotherham, and as far as you think i am being selfish over the waste of public money il,leave others to judge that.kind regards judd
judd newton
/ 6 August, 2010any other interest in sheffield markets or indeed any sheffield buildings loved or not can also be aired on a tale of two casstles, thebleeding heart show,hope to hear your views.
Neil
/ 6 August, 2010Judd, my family have had stalls in Rotherham Market for approaching 40 years. I worked in Rotherham market most of my youth and knew at one time many of the tenants there. If a similar opportunity existed to Rotherham market tenants as does for those in Sheffield they would take it, assuming they were not affected by what seems to be your regressive brand of misplaced sentimentality. However, such an opportunity doesn’t exist today as far as I know. Neither does it exist as far as I’m aware for Doncaster or Barnsley so I’m rather surprised you mentioned any or all of them, presumably to prop up your argument.
Incidentally, this debate happened before in the late 60′s in Rotherham when the Old Market was torn down and replaced by the current Centenary Market. At that time, unbelievably(!) the Centenary Market was modern and progressive. It’s called progress, and I don’t understand your objection to it.
judd newton
/ 6 August, 2010niel ;my friend, i am not arguing merely expressing a opposite view to you .as far as sentimentality is concerned you are dead right ,the people i talk to don,t write to newspapers, don,t have access to a computer wouldn,t know one from chocolate frog,and so they are the silent majority who are trampled on by sweep em under the carpet brigade,in fact my kind of people, who i mix with and talk to on a regular basis, its all happened before . example the abc cinama a superb building,gone, the empire theatre gone,the grand hotel gone,the hole in the road gone,look at whats in there place,is it progress, and the same will happen with the market,by the way your not a sainsbury or a atkinson are you ,me thinks you protest to much
ron clayton
/ 7 August, 2010Hi Judd,
There’s no great skill or ability required to write to newspapers- you just have to care enough or disagree enough.Don’t know about the ABC Judd but what Sheffield is doing with the Markets is breaking a tradition of not caring about its medieval past. Have you seen our Discovery Centre at Manor Lodge Judd? That’s progress-real progress. Many of us have been aghast at the reverence given to Park Hill Flats- now they are beginning to look interesting but ‘iconic’ ? Nostalgia is part of my feeling about Castle House certainly. And our ‘Little Mesters’ buildings are still undervalued- even though most of them are gone. As for the Student Games- well they could have been delivered better but they were a genuine catalyst for change and a way forward Judd. Imagine being able to se the Stones in Sheffield eh ? Now the late Jan Wilson saw the need for radical change- and you can’t say she didn’t care about the ‘little people’ Judd-rest her soul.
Enjoy your self at Saltfleet- Oh and I didn’t go in the Teagardens but I know a man who did- and I’ve heard that story before. I wish others would join in this dialogue.
Regards
Ron
ARTEMIS
/ 14 October, 2010ps neil,have we paid for don valley stadium as yet and does it make a profit i believe that our civic leaders who where responsible for that millstone are still around and still grinning like Cheshire cats at there foresight and wisdom
Judd, I have to sat it’s clear you don’t have all the facts. Last years U2 gig at Don Valley stadium brought over 20million pounds into the city, not just to the stadium. To hotels in the city, to pubs, actually preventing at least three from complete closure. food outlets, retail at meadowhall, the list goes on. So not only does the venue pay it’s own way, contrary to your incorrect belif, it also adds to the income of the city as a whole, creates & maintains employment for the residents of Sheffield, but also puts Sheffield on the map and raises it’s profile.
For many years the stadium was referred to as a white elephant, presumably from the people who used to work at Brown Baileys Steels, the site on which the stadium was built, and I imagine these would be the same people complaining when the traffic is at a stanstill throughout the don valley area due to 52,000 people descending on the venue from outside the city with their pockets full of money. Guess you just can’t win. As for the Market, the building is a mess, and an eyesore, and very probably has become more expensive to maintain than it’s worth, which I imagine is one of the driving factors for getting rid and making a more economical place to run. This does happen you know. The fact that it’s planted on top of a site of historical interest will have simply added to the motivation for pulling it down. Provided the retail remains in the city, no-one need lose out. Retailers may in fact discover an additional market on the Moor, and increase turnover, but lets not let that get in the way of a perfectly good argument eh?
Sheffield does not have sufficient green areas as it is in the center of the city, and that area of Sheffield could use the uplift that this idea will provide.
As for the stadium, the arena and all other venues built that you may think are a waste of space, I’m sorry to tell you categorically here and now, you are wrong! they provide much needed employment to the people without money who desperately need it! they provide schemes to help improve the health of the residents of the city, they provide activities to keep kids off the streets, improve social inclusion.. I could go on forever, but most imortantly, they help to keep Sheffield solvent, the overrriding motiviation for providing more hotels in the city, making more employment for sheffields people, are these very venues you are dismissing as ‘millstones’. These venues bring people to us! when they get here, they spend money! it’s a no brainer really. i could perhaps understand your argument if they stood empty day after day but they don’t, if you feel the need to check, get off your butt and go see for yourself. You’ll find them full. Winter time Don Valley Stadium hosts a full indoor bowls season, football, rugby, a fitness suite open 7 days a week with over a 1000 members, over 300 kids taking part in gymnastics each week, another 300 with athletics, not to mention parties, conference facilities etc. Summer time it’s concerts, athletics events, sports days etc. Not bad for a millstone eh? I’d suggest in future you do a bit more research before putting your arguments into the public domain to save losing face.
ARTEMIS
/ 14 October, 2010Sorry Judd, just seen the last post….the hole in the road??? Did you SEE what that became before it was fillied in??? did you ever go there at night?? probably not or you wouldn’t be here talking now. I know at least 5 people who almost lost their lives down there by gangs on drugs. The ABC my father helped to build, and yes it was a shame to see it go, there are always memories with such places, but the one constant in life is change, and we either change with the times or we get left behind. Just beacuase it’s different doesn’t mean it’s bad. Some changes are mistakes, (new town hall being one of the major ones, but it’s gone too, you don’t lament that surely?) I don’t remember the others, but much of sheffield’s heritage has been saved (Lyceum Theatre, old town hall) Sheffield castle is a part of that, and should be there for people to see, most people in sheffield don’t even know there ever was a castle there. I for one liked the old sheffield, but I also like the new one. The one significant thing about Sheffield is it’s resilience, it’s ability to survive, re-invent itself, despite the challenges it faces. It’s not called the city of Steel for nothing. You should be proud to be part of a city that refuses to lie down and die, or to live in the past, slowly rotting away. Try looking at the other side of the coin. The young people will have to live with the decisions made today for a very long time. Trade is important you are right, but sites of historical interst are also ‘trade’. I’m surprised you can’t see that.
judd newton
/ 19 October, 2010well artemis,youv,e smacked me in the nose i don,t know where to start.the points you have raised on don valley have certainly made me think but it does not alter the fact that it put the city in tremendous debt to US finance companies [i believe]when it was built.perhaps the 20 million quid u2 brought in will have paid this off .now castle market im getting tired as a individual trying to defend this iconic building ive don it all before and i am a sheffielder of a certain age and persuasion who see all that we love in this city being caste aside by people who talk the talk, and ware the suite with disregard as to tradition and history. [there was a market at the joining of the don and sheaf before any castle]under the durastriction of the lord of the manor, ok The hole in the rooad, the oil in the rooad was magnificent architectural and engineering achievement that would be iconic today as it was yesterday the fact of your five friends being mugged murdered there is not the locations fault but the council and police responsability, we are being mugged by people in westminster every day does it mean we should pull it down of course not .so we will go to the now demolished new town hall extension yes i do lament its demolition have you realy looked at what has replaced it the awful glass and plastic edifaces that that have taken away the very meaning of town hall square which was meant to serve the citizens in one central location,now everything is spread out to differant areas progress i think not.[i personaly visited the town hall extension on hundreds of occasions it was easy to use due to everyone being under the same roof] as for as pulling it down what waste of the earths resorces[ the same aplies to castle market i may add] .so lets move on as you saythe young people will have to live with decisions made today well you are right but life is about all our citizens and in my opinion the peoples who have shaped sheffield and made it the city it is today are being swepted aside by a new culture that is far removed from the worldwide made in sheffield fame,i could go on and on and on ,but all i can say is once its gone its gone. ps did you know that sheffield had the first corresponding society formed in 1792 so at least we are keeping one tradition . nice to hear from you and cheersJudd